Death, Economics And Coronavirus

In the past, I have argued that the threat to lives from the shutdown is far greater than the threat to lives from the virus. Not lives in the developed world, but the lives of the 3-4 billion people who live hand-to-mouth outside the developed world. The growing threat of our economic catastrophe threatens massive numbers of their lives. For context, 700,000 have been killed by the coronavirus. The World Food Program estimates 120 million additional people will face acute food shortages. They have lowered their predictions for child death, nonetheless they are predicting 128,000 deaths among children under 5 in 2020. The children are particularly important (not just because they are cute) but because they would otherwise have decades of life in front of them. Even in Sub-Saharan Africa, life expectancy has hit 60 years. Each child thus represents 55+ years of life lost while the average coronavirus victim has lost 10.

These impacts are as great as they are because the developing world depends on the wealthy world for all manner of economic activity from textile manufacturing to petroleum and mineral extraction to cash remittances from people working in the developed world. Without that work, the economic structure of entire nations can collapse. The impacts will not only kill, they will destabilize.

For these reasons, it is critical we chart a course back to economic health as soon as we possibly can.

Of course, we can’t do that without any consideration for the lives at risk from the virus in our world. The goal has to be to take both the virus and economic impacts into consideration.

This article is an attempt to analyze the current situation and determine – in more depth than I have before – the path forward for different regions. My prior articles have been very broad in their recommendations. I have actually recommended both paths in this article before – but not at the same time. Unlike previous pieces, this article bifurcates its recommendations by region. This bifurcation is due to the more in-depth analysis in this piece. 

As I see it, the following factors are in play:

  1. In countries that had severe outbreaks, death rates have fallen dramatically (even in places like Sweden that have never practiced government enforced social distancing). Note that Sweden had a very high death rate in part because – to quote the WSJ - "About 90% of nursing-home residents who succumbed to Covid-19 in Sweden were never admitted to a hospital, according to official estimates."

  2. Case death rates (from known diagnosis) are highly unreliable as they are very dependent on testing rates. 

  3. Infection death rates are unknown because serological survey testing has basically stopped. It could tell us how much the virus spread and how deadly it is now, but we just don’t know.

  4. The BBC was reporting that large numbers of people (perhaps 50-60%) appear to have T-cell based immunity that pre-dates the current outbreak. In other words, blood samples taken several years ago indicated patients were already immune. This would enable community immunity even without 60+% infection rates. 10-20% might be enough to protect communities from further large-scale death. 

    a. This might be why NYC had 22,310 deaths through May 2020 (272 deaths/day from the date of the first death. Serological surveys indicated 20% at this point. Since, there have been 1,244 coronavirus deaths in the city, for 19 deaths/day. In the past month, this has fallen to 10 deaths/day – despite massive public protests. In the week ending August 4th, deaths were 3.6/day. The current death rate is roughly 1/15th the death rate from heart disease. Coronavirus has gone from the overwhelmingly cause of death to one of a number of causes.
    b. NYC’s performance could have been due to lockdown, but Sweden (which didn’t lock down had a similar pattern). There were 54 deaths/day until June 1st. Despite a lack of economically crippling mandates, death rates then dropped. From June 1st to today, they have averaged 21 deaths/day. And from July 1st, it has been 12.4 deaths/day. It is possible their slower decline is due to a less intense initial assault (as shown in the chart).

  5. We have possible vaccines on the horizon. There are many candidates and while some say they won’t be available for years, others are indicating large-scale vaccination by the end of this year. I can’t predict which is true.

  6. Contract tracing has never really succeeded in much of the West.

  7. We are seeing contradictory information on the impact of children. Studies of hospitalized patients in Geneva, China, Korea and New South Wales indicate young children are not good transmitters of the virus. Other studies have disagreed. One argued that they must be good transmitters because the concentration of the virus in nasal cavities of children under 5 is far higher than in others. Another, based in Italy, argued that family transmission was higher for children under 5. In the past, I have argued for having under 10s go to school. Parents with children in this age bracket are unable to work with the kids at home. They serve as a major economic brake. Kids over 10 can more easily fend for themselves and thus have less of an impact on an economy. Because we don’t know which is true we need a plan that doesn’t depend on this factor.

  8. I believe a concept of community immunity might be relevant. This isn’t herd immunity. With herd immunity a large percentage of people are immune and the virus can’t effectively spread within a population. With community immunity, the virus continues to spread. However, it spreads to people who have partial immunity as they were exposed in recent months. This tops up their immunity and extends the immunity of the community as a whole. Thus, the virus’ effects are limited. Deaths continue, but at a much lower rate. For this to work, the virus has to keep circulating in the population. Otherwise people will lose immunity and the virus will have a free reign.

  9. A great deal of coverage is politically focused. Below are the hardest hit countries with over 5,000,000 in population by cumulative death rate. Many critical news articles focus on the UK, US and Brazil – being as they are led by widely ridiculed buffoons. This is despite two of those three countries not leading the world in death rates. Negative coverage of government actions in Peru, Spain, Italy and Belgium is minimal. You probably can’t even name the heads of state of all three countries – but Bolsonaro, Trump and Boris Johnson are widely fingered with responsibility.

    Within the US, the trend continues. Florida, Georgia, Arizona and Texas all receive heavy negative coverage of their government responses (and have for months). But death rates don’t reflect that. I mapped governor’s popularity among democrats prior to coronavirus vs. death rates in their states. Negative press flows to the left of the chart (politically less liberal governors) vs. the right – despite death rates being far higher in states that have governors popular with the left.
     

     

    With this in mind, we have to step back from the political considerations in determining what course to take. Just because Trump takes a position does not make it right or wrong. Just because the left has gone with lockdowns while the right has been resistant to them does not make those positions necessarily right or wrong.

  10. There is no question in my mind that economically minimal policies (like mask enforcement and isolation of those at very high risk) should be implemented. They appear to lower the impact of infection, and most industries can still function with masks in place.

With all of this in mind, there is one critical question: How many lives will be saved vs. cost by economically severe interventions? 

The answer will vary widely by the prior experience of each country/state. In some places with minimal exposure, opening up could lead to a large number of deaths. In others, it would have almost no effect. Given that, I propose the following steps:

  1. First step is another round of statistical testing that includes both antibody and T-Cell based tests for immunity. 

  2. If a region has a high level of immunity, it should open up (with masks in place and protections for those at very high risk) to minimize the effects of secondary infection. The additional death rate (as in Sweden) will be low. Use Swedish data as a baseline to determine what level of immunity is necessary to reach this state. States with a high level of immunity (based on following the ‘NYC Curve’) probably include Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada (they very recently dropped and might still be in the middle), New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Vermont. These represent 15% of GDP in 2019.

  3. If a region has a low level of immunity, the updated risk of death (due to improved treatment) should be determined. The same surveys from step 1 could be used to assess prior infection rates and plot them vs. overall death rates. This would provide an estimate of remaining deaths necessary to achieve community immunity could be determined for these areas. If the death rates are low, then this value would be low.

  4. If a region determines the cost of opening is low, then they should do so. Non-economically impactful measures (masks, limited isolation) should remain in place to lessen infection loads and somewhat slow the spread of the virus.

  5. However, if a region determines that the cost of opening is too high, then they should dramatically shift in the other direction. 

    a. A full lockdown (including grocery shopping) will bring the virus to a near halt. Pharmaceuticals would be delivered by tested staff and the government could make MREs (or equivalent) available in stores in advance of a lockdown so people can easily acquire the food needed for isolation. 
    b. The shutdown would last two weeks for single-family households and three weeks for multi-person households. This time frame is because the vast majority of cases are not contagious after two weeks. The extra week for multi-family households would exist to allow for later infection within the household. 
    c. At the end of two weeks, those with suspected cases would be isolated and the rest of the economy would be opened up with temperature-based border testing. 
    d. This would not stop the virus (illegal immigration, travel from areas with high infection rates, asymptomatic cases still in the population etc… could reestablish it). But it would reset the clock and delay the full impacts of the virus until a vaccine is available.
    e. The clarity of timelines will allow businesses to plan and can itself provide a boost to economic growth.
  6. When a vaccine is available, provide it first to regions with low levels of immunity. This will dramatically limit the impact of the virus.

One thing that shouldn’t happen is remaining ‘partially’ open for an extended period of time. This is because of the costs for lives both in the region itself and in the developing world. 

The WFP estimates the number of people who will suffer from acute food insecurity will almost double (Lancet paper, above). Approximately 9 million died in 2019 from this cause, so we can broadly estimate an additional 9 million will die this year. If we want to estimate the cost of our current policies, we can assign each state a third-party impact based on its contribution to the GDP of OECD countries that have had significant shutdowns. The GDP of these countries totals 47 trillion. So, very roughly, each 5.2 million in GDP brought fully back online will save a life (this ignores multi-year impacts – where economic recovery now saves lives in the future). Using this metric, Texas has a GDP of 66 billion. Bringing it fully back online could save 12,695 lives this year and perhaps more years in the future.

As far as local deaths are concerned, there is data indicating that unemployment leads to a loss of 1.5 years of life. If corona costs 10 years of life per individual killed then we have a useful comparison. Six people losing their jobs for six months could have the same life-years impact as a single coronavirus death. Approximately 700,000 Texans have lost their jobs since January, suggesting a longer-term impact of a million life years lost in Texas vs. 85,000 life years lost to the virus. Getting people back to work could save a million life years going forward. Although I have no model for the impact of extending unemployment, the costs are clearly high.

Of course, all of this is very rough. I’m not a believer in the reliability of complex models (or simple ones that try to capture complexity). This is simply directional. It does, however, indicate that an extended shutdown or slowdown is the worst of all paths.

In other words, we need certainty.

All in all, I am recommending a simple strategy. 

  1. Project remaining deaths based on antibody and T-Cell immunity (and Swedish data)

  2. Determine the cost and benefits of opening for that region vs. shutting down for a short time. 

  3. Then, pick one and move on.

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Comments

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Ayelet Wolf 3 years ago Member's comment
Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

I'm uncertain about this. We haven't see any of the places with little humps seriously drop off yet. Could be that there hasn't been enough continual exposure or not that there hasn't been enough exposure total but we just haven't seen it.

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

My predictions: One, we will experience the mildest flu season ever on record, because of the precautions being taken to avoid the spread of C-19. Two, the bottom will drop out of the economy in Q4-2020 or Q1-2021, causing, among other things, the worst housing market collapse in US history.

SarahWilliams 3 years ago Member's comment

What are your latest predictions?

Dan Richards 3 years ago Member's comment

I'm staring to think we may have to concede both the election and our Covid predictions. Yes, deaths are way down, but infections are way up. And in terms of the election, I've yet to see any evidence of wide spread fraud that would be significant enough to flip a state. What are your thought?

Dan Richards 3 years ago Member's comment

I'd say you are spot on with those predictions.

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

Isn't this common sense? Why have I not heard anyone predict these happenings? Can't wait to say, "I told you so". Oh, and buy a new house at an insane discount off of today's inflated prices.

Flat Broke 3 years ago Member's comment

It makes a lot of sense, but only the wealthy can take advantage of down turns. Many of us are out of work now and can't take advantage of the drop in the realty market.

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

I suggest you take this opportunity to build your own business and not rely on being employed by someone else. And, pick a business that can survive a downturn in the economy. Something that people rely on in both good and bad times.

Flat Broke 3 years ago Member's comment

It's a great idea, but sadly it takes money to make money. So once again, it's not an option for those of us who can't even make rent right now. Our options are severely limited. The additional pandemic assistance was great when it lasted but there's no telling when or if, we'll get any more.

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

Look at local farmers markets as a place to do business. The cost to get started can be just a few hundred dollars. People/Shoppers are willing to fork over four times as much for homemade/handmade cookies or bread, jams, jelley's, pickles, salsas, or whatever. You can easily turn a $100 investment in ingredients and your labor, into $1,000 cash. I know from experience. Hire a few people to bake for you and sell at multiple markets and you will have thousands of dollars in your cash boxes after 4 or 5 hours at the markets on Saturday mornings. I turned a hobby, that became my passion into an extra $100K a year, just because I got bored in retirement. It's immense fun, fills a need in the market, brings tremendous satisfaction to your customers and makes a ton of cash in a very short amount time.

Moon Kil Woong 3 years ago Contributor's comment

There simply is not enough jobs even if people start their own businesses. There won't be enough demand to cover the needed jobs. Corona virus only exacerbates the shortfall in income producing jobs and Trump's tax cuts don't really address the issue. This is why big business is slaughtering all the small businesses and getting even more efficient. They don't want more overhead either.

This is a big problem. Japan hasn't solved it after decades of terrible readjustment.

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

It will take years before we get back to the low unemployment numbers we saw before the politicians destroyed the best economy on US history. Trump can lead us there, but only if the Marxists Dumbocrats are defeated in November. As long as they hold office, they will do everything they can to destroy the economy, either willingly or by their ignorance.

Angry Old Lady 3 years ago Member's comment

DRM, I'm a Democrat, but i'm no Marxist. Nice lumping everyone you oppose together into one stereotype. I see hwy you like Trump so much.. peas in a pod.

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

There are exceptions in both parties, but it's clear that the Democrats have embraced the Marxist ideology. Having spent most of the past 6 years in the former Soviet Union, I can tell you from personal experience, Marxism ("Social Democracy", "Socialism", "Communism", "Leftism") does not fulfill the dreams that the Marxists embrace. Their infrastructure is crumbling around them. It's been almost 30 years since it's collapse and they are still oppressed both politically and economically. There are no smiles on the faces of the masses which I was, at first, astonished to see, especially in the metro, which were built hundreds of meters underground, in order to withstand a nuclear attack. There is no middle class, only mass poverty, by US standards and the extremely rare and excessive wealth of the oligarchs. Those who oppose the regime are either assassinated or poisoned to death. The riots we're seeing in the Democratically ungoverned cities and states would be violently and instantly quashed by Marxists if they were in power here in the USA. Feelings and dreams blind those who embrace the time and again proven failures of the Left!

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

All of this is why I've suggested restructuring the tax and social support systems to supercharge the economy. talkmarkets.com/.../empowering-america?post=265437

Duke Peters 3 years ago Member's comment

I had no idea that COVID-19 had destroyed NYC so much!

talkmarkets.com/.../nyc-is-dead-forever-heres-why

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

C-19 did not destroy NYC. Two politicians did. The mayor and the governor! Thank you Marxists!

Andrew Armstrong 3 years ago Member's comment

That's ridiculous. Of course the pandemic was the primary factor for decimating NYC. But unlike the author, no matter how famous he may be, I do believe that the city will bounce back. New York'ers don't roll over and give up. But it could take a year or two before it fully recovers.

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment
DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

You don't understand. Yes, C-19 was a problem, but how the mayor and governor reacted was the root cause of NYC being decimated, them and the other NY politicians allowing crime to run rampant through the streets. New Yorkers are leaving the city in droves. NYC won't recover until all of the politicians are replaced with individuals who at least possess common sense and civil order is reinstated.

Andrew Armstrong 3 years ago Member's comment

Yes, some mistakes were made. Cuomo with his nursing home debacle, and I've never liked de Blasio. But overall, NY did a great job of actually getting the numbers down. I don't know enough about the local politics though to know if the violence was related to COVID-19 or the BLM movement. And from what I understand, while there were calls for de Blasio to resign among my NY friends, Cuomo became wildly popular and his nightly press briefings became required watching in the early days.

Texan Hunter 3 years ago Member's comment

New Zealand had been able to eradicate Covid from its borders, but it's now back and they have finally figured out how. If this is accurate, it seems no country can ever be safe until there is a vaccine:

www.foxnews.com/.../live-coronavirus-meat-seafood-study

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

Or:

1) The virus becomes so prevalent that we get community immunity. Still some level of death, but far far reduced

2) We learn how to treat actual cases. Dexomethazone is helping with critical cases and it appears that Kamada's focused antibody drug is working with early stage cases. More innovations may occur

3) The virus itself becomes less dangerous

Texan Hunter 3 years ago Member's comment

I don't understand your comment in how it relates to my comment. They actually tested the imported food and found it to be contaminated.

Sure, improvements in treatments will help, but it means even if we lockdown completely, we can't completely prevent infection.

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

Totally agree. We can't eradicate infection. I think we should stop seeking absolutes and be looking at tradeoffs instead. Coronavirus will be with us for a long while, we should be seeking to minimize its impact.

That will require a mix of public health, economic and other policies. But it should also take into account the changes in our ability to deal with the virus itself.

If we acquire community immunity (knocking down death rates to the rates seen by a killer like car accidents), get better at treatment or find the virus itself has gotten less dangerous then we should adjust our policies to reflect that.

David Newmark 3 years ago Member's comment

Good read. Any updates on this?

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

I'm working on another project so I haven't been updating.

But my general position remains. US death rates have fallen some. It seems the second 'echo' is beginning to pass. But I expect them to rise as a third batch of states goes through a round of infection and then effective protection.

Israel's death rate is higher (they missed some cases earlier) but they had very little exposure the first time around so it makes sense.

New York's very high exposure and death rates in Ultra-Orthodox communities seems to be coinciding with a very low death rate (although continuing infections) in that community despite large weddings with multi-state attendees. They seem to be echoing Sweden. They paid a heavy price but are showing that community immunity is possible.

As I see it, the data still supports the serological survey and current mortality risk assessment approach.

David M. Green 3 years ago Member's comment

For Joseph, @[DRM](user:130312) and others who said that Sweden's path was the right way:

Sweden Records Highest Death Tally In 150 Years edition.cnn.com/.../index.html

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

Explain why the C-19 death rate per million in Sweden, which did not lock down, is lower than the UK, Spain, Italy and Belgium, and about the same as the USA, all of which locked down? Mayors and governors around the USA and the federal governments of these other countries, stripped the citizens of their civil rights and jobs, to no benefit! People have become lemmings! And, here in the USA, the insanity continues. Thank God that Biden will never be elected, because he said he'd lockdown the entire country, if elected. It seems no one in power can see the truth, which is, lockdowns do damage, not good. People die! It's part of humanity. 56 million people die every year, worldwide. Approximately 3 million Americans die every year. How many more will die this year and next year because of the lockdowns? They don't work!!! By the way, this year is probably the worst in many years for many countries, not just Sweden.

Harry Goldstein 3 years ago Member's comment

There's always a better way... According to Sweden's chief epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, due to Sweden's very high death rate, he would have reconsidered Sweden's strategy:

"Asked if the country’s high death toll has made him reconsider his unique approach to the pandemic, Tegnell told Swedish radio, “Yes, absolutely.”

According to the national health agency, Sweden, a nation of 10.2 million people, has seen 4,542 deaths linked to COVID-19, which is far more than its Nordic neighbors and one of the highest per capita death rates in the world. Denmark has had 580 coronavirus deaths, Finland has seen 320 and Norway has had 237, according to a tally by Johns Hopkins University.

“If we were to encounter the same disease again, knowing precisely what we know about it today, I think we would settle on doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done,” Tegnell, considered the architect of the unique Swedish pandemic approach, told SR."

Source: www.usatoday.com/.../3142761001/

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

My point is, locking down a city, state or country does not work! The numbers bear this out. Why destroy an economy and many lives, with something that has been proven to not only be ineffective, but detrimental? Why are politicians and those who listen and believe in them so stupid?

Anne Barry 3 years ago Member's comment

The answer may very well be some solution in between the two extremes. Finding the right balance is key.

Alexis Renault 3 years ago Member's comment

It's very confusing because half of what I read says "Sweden was right, they beat coronavirus without a lockdown and saved their economy." And the other half says "See, Sweden didn't lockdown, their population was decimated with a massive deathrate, and their economy still took a hit."

So which is it? They can't possibly both be right. @[Joseph Cox](user:127658) or anyone else, can you please explain the correct answer in as simply terms as possible, without any spin?

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

I don't argue that Sweden has been either right or wrong. My position is that we can learn from what they did. What they have to teach is that community immunity is possible. Death rates are *now* very low and they still haven't locked down.

The virus seems to be either better dealt with or less virulent. Knowing that community immunity (imperfect, but not mass death) can be reached we can look at the current danger of the virus, the current extend of T-Cell or antibody protection, and assess the costs of staying open.

Sweden paid a terrible price, but the rest of us have a chance to learn from their ongoing experiment.

Finally, Sweden death rate may have been heavily driven by their decision not to treat the elderly. 90% of nursing home residents diagnosed with the virus were never admitted to hospital. It tore through the nursing home population because of this policy (which also exposed other people in nursing homes). That was clearly a mistake. Death rates may have been significantly lower had they done more for those nursing homes.

Bill Johnson 3 years ago Member's comment

Yes Ayelet, it seems depending on what site you go to, the data means something else. Sadly, everyone has an agenda these days. But to clarify,i it's not quite accurate to say that Sweden did nothing. They did ask all citizens to social distance and practice proper hygiene, and they did ban gatherings over 50. I would say even in countries where such practices were mandated by law, a high percentage of the population ignored the mandate.

Dan Richards 3 years ago Member's comment

That's correct Bill, but it also makes @[DRM](user:130312)'s point. If so many people are going to ignore the mandate anyway, why force it on people and take away their right to choose? Leave it up to individuals to make the proper choice. And @[DRM](user:130312) and I agree that the correct choice is to wear a mask and be socially distant.

But people have literally been killed from all the fights over whether to wear a mask or not. If some people refuse to wear a mask, we'll simply see Darwin's theory play out. But I suspect a lot more people would have been willing to wear a mask if it wasn't forced on them. For many it was not a health issue, but a civil rights issue.

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

Agree 100%!

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

Look at the numbers. The numbers don't lie. See the link below. If lockdowns worked, the death rate in Sweden would be much higher than the average. They're not!!!

www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Bill Johnson 3 years ago Member's comment

This is a great link DRM, thank you. I've been searching for something like this for a long time. But it seems to counter your own argument. If you click on the "Deaths/1 Million Population," to sort by that specific criteria, Sweden, though not the highest, is ranked very very high at #8. Even higher than the US which is at $10

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

Well, if you exclude San Morino and Andorra, two insignificant, tiny countries, Sweden has the 6th highest death rate. But why aren't they number 1, if lockdowns work and they didn't lockdown? No one can prove that a countrywide lockdown would have reduced C-19 deaths. NYC had a lockdown and look how many people died there! The problem in NYC and Sweden was not protecting/isolating those who were at risk, the elderly living in "old folk's homes". Why take everyone's civil rights and freedom away when only a few need to be protected? As Joseph Cox has stated numerous times, the effect of the lockdown's is far worse than the virus.

Bill Johnson 3 years ago Member's comment

I don't know why. I don't have an answer to this. But it's still pretty darn high. And there were countries like Italy and the UK which were overwhelmed pretty early and were not prepared - they didn't even know to do basics like be socially distant back then. Initially the UK did not lockdown either.

What I find more interesting is why countries like Iran and China are so much lower down on the list. I believe they are lying about the numbers. China had only 3 deaths per million? That puts them as one of the best in the world even though it started there before they even knew what it was. I highly doubt that.

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

If we can't trust the numbers that our government reports, we sure as hell can't trust the Iranian or Chinese governments. The numbers aren't high. Put things into perspective! The deaths in Sweden are less than 6/100ths of 1 percent. They have supposedly lost 5,800 lives, depending on how they count C-19 deaths. Our idiot politicians count anyone who has has C-19 and later died for any reason as a C-19 death. INSANITY!!! Anyway, approximately 100,000 people die every year in Sweden. So, it's sad that 5,800 have died from C-19, but that's a very small number compared to the total that die every year. Lastly, most of those who died we very old, basically at the end of their lifetimes.

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

I didn't say Sweden's was the right path. Multiple times I have said they paid a very heavy price. What I did say was that we can learn from them about community immunity and what they have now achieved (albeit at a high cost).

David M. Green 3 years ago Member's comment

For @[DRM](user:130312) who said kids unlikely to be infected with covid and rarely get sick when they do... rates are rising in children. Only 45% of them are asymptomatic.

www.foxnews.com/.../cdc-says-number-rate-of-coronavirus-cases-in-children-rising

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

Simple question: Why are so many people, of all ages, asymptomatic, when this is supposed to be such a deadly virus? It's a fact that younger people are more or less unaffected by C-19. Yes, some children have gotten sick and some have died. However, "experts" say that the flu is more deadly to younger people than C-19 and the facts, so far, bear this out.

David M. Green 3 years ago Member's comment

More on how kids can be asymptomatic super spreaders:

edition.cnn.com/.../index.html

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

Severe coronavirus disease, death 'rare' among kids, UK study finds

www.foxnews.com/.../severe-coronavirus-disease-death-rare-kids-uk-study

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

Here is a better article on the same subject. Rather than lots of scary suppositions it actually logically breaks down what we do and do not know.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53946420

In my opinion, given what we know about infection doses, children might be *ideal* spreaders. They might spread, but because they aren't coughing up powerful doses of the virus their spread might result in more mild cases around them. This might explain studies that indicate low rates of child-to-adult transmission where hospitalized patients are used as the starting point.

Either way, my article doesn't take a position on children. Although if children can spread mild cases that would be a boon.

David M. Green 3 years ago Member's comment

Yes, it is certainly very odd. One of the strangest things there is about this disease. The very young CAN die, but most are completely asymptomatic. Most people are. And while a million people may likely die before this is all over, we now know the morbidity rate is far lower than we initially thought, because we initially were only looking at those with symptoms.

DRM 3 years ago Member's comment

If we look at what "could" happen, no one should get out of bed in the morning.

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

"Evidence suggests about 45% of pediatric infections are asymptomatic, the CDC said." What evidence? It could well be, but given how little we know about the statistical prevalence of the virus in the general (untested) population, I'd be surprised if they know this.

This is entirely anecdotal, but at my five-year-old son's kindergarden, a teacher's aide got sick (loss of taste and smell, no other symptoms). There were 15 kids. The main teacher (a woman in her 60s) was also infected, but was fine.

Three other kids were tested - one because his mother worked with elderly people and couldn't return to work until the kid was also cleared, one because the kid had a bit of diarrhea and a third because he had a slight fever. One test (the diarrhea) came back positive.

They didn't test anybody else because that's not the protocol.

My wife was tested two weeks later (at the end of our isolation period), she was negative.

I wonder what percentage of those kids were actually infected. Close quarters, extended time together... Either the infectivity among this group happened to be very low or the level of illness was...

Moon Kil Woong 3 years ago Contributor's comment

Sweeden facts about cases and about their cultural behaviors to social distance etc.

www.statnews.com/.../covid19-accidental-sweden-fall-could-be-catastrophic/

www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

Limited social distancing has led to a collapse of deaths - in Sweden. Initial deaths were high, as I've noted 90% of nursing home cases were never admitted to hospital. And now those rates have collapsed. And the economy would have been fine if the rest of the Western world had lemminged off a cliff.

The stats aren't there for the ultra orthodox community in the Northeastern US, but they too have seen deaths almost totally disappear. And I *know* they are having large weddings (hundreds of people) with people from the entire region attending.

www.jpost.com/.../could-brooklyns-hasidic-jews-have-herd-immunity-634393

Moon Kil Woong 3 years ago Contributor's comment

We require proof to show that these are isolated groups and proof or at least an article to prove that the rest of Sweden is immune given Sweden is increasing not decreasing their restrictions due to Corona. The following report is saying that even with a vaccine and limited dosing of the population we will not get this. www.news-medical.net/.../...n-the-US-unlikely.aspx

Frank J. Williams 3 years ago Member's comment

Thanks for the link, very interesting view.

Texan Hunter 3 years ago Member's comment

This is promising. A new report says that long lasting and herd immunity is possible. The completely contradicts earlier findings:

www.foxnews.com/.../lasting-immunity-seen-mild-covid-19-infection-studies-say

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

Just curious: are you a hunter from Texas or do you hunt Texans?

Ayelet Wolf 3 years ago Member's comment

Some good news out of Israel today:

"Saliva Test For COVID-19 With 'Less Than 1 Second' Results Enters Trial Phase In Israel"

talkmarkets.com/.../saliva-test-for-covid-19-with-less-than-1-second-results-enters-trial-phase-in-israel

Tom Callahan 3 years ago Member's comment

Wow, that could be a way to finally reopen travel!

Moon Kil Woong 3 years ago Contributor's comment

Except that it takes time to grow so you can test yourself quickly after quarantining yourself for a while. The problem with travel is stopping it is the same as temp checks. If it doesn't exhibit the infection immediately then the test alone won't stop the spread over boarders alone.

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

We are not going to suppress it into non-existence. Won't happen. It is here and unless there is a miracle vaccine here it will stay. So you either limit it or limit its effects. You don't shut down the world forever because of it. Rapid testing at borders can slow its spread by catching lots of cases.

The real value of this, imo, is rapid testing among high-risk populations. If you can protect them then a host of policy options open up.

Adam Reynolds 3 years ago Member's comment

Maybe Putin? I don't think we can trust Putin to tell the truth about anything.

Joseph Cox 3 years ago Contributor's comment

There are lots of more promising vaccines. Their 'durability' is the issue. They have to be cheap enough for the undeveloped world or else those populations will continue to have the virus - meaning that developed world populations will continue to be exposed. It has to be strong enough to trigger long-term immunity, which the virus itself doesn't do. And it has to be broad enough to cover a virus that will gradually mutate or else we'll need new vaccines every few months when our immune systems aren't regularly exposed to the latest versions of the bug.

A vaccine could definitely fast-forward us to a Swedish situation, but I doubt it will eliminate the risks.

Tom Callahan 3 years ago Member's comment

Maybe Putin was telling the truth about their vaccine. I realize they still need to do more testing but it is a ray of hope.